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 Post subject: Re: New total of ships and fighters for a Rebellion Remake?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:40 pm 
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A good idea, those links will be helpful, I need alot of names! Good news! :P By using a 'Clone' command I reduced the application system memory back down close to the normal 50 (few ships) to 70 meg system RAM (for 10,000 ships) instead of 1000 meg RAM hog.

The only real limitation now is my old video card limit of 400 million triangles per second. I aslo changed the frame rate to SYNC 30. So really it is not the CPU nor the system RAM, just how many triangle 'polys' need to be made and most cards today should blow mine away. I will keep as an idea some medium amd low res models to use, if it needs to be. Substitute low poly model for far away between frame sync would get to 100,000 I think (they become practically dots on the screen). Here is truely 10,000 ships at full detail.

10,000 B.C.
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 Post subject: Re: New total of ships and fighters for a Rebellion Remake?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:14 pm 
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Location: Death Stars are out at night, big and bright, deep in the heart of Texas.
Could you show a video of the 10,000 VSD's assaulting the planet? :twisted: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: New total of ships and fighters for a Rebellion Remake?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 7:37 pm 
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DarthTex wrote:
Could you show a video of the 10,000 VSD's assaulting the planet? :twisted: :lol:


8) I wish I could right now, but do not worry; :twisted: I have a very nice in game Death Star that shoots a multipoint laser beam that hits a planet in game and blows it up with smoke and ring particles, just like in the movie. I am not finished with it yet, but it is a real kicker. :mrgreen:

In this remake, you will see the Death Star slowly get closer to the planet, and it will fire on enemy ships, and then you can blow the planet up if you win the fight (or/and a timer countdown in range); but of course if the Rebels have fighters, they get at least one shot at the Death Star Run; and more Runs if they have and maintain fighter superiority. Then the Death Star goes 'Boom!'

That all will be in real time in game, not the movie clip (I am afraid LA may get upset if I pass around their movie cuts from the original Rebellion). Of course, you can always add them back in using your movies off the disk.


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 Post subject: Re: New total of ships and fighters for a Rebellion Remake?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:54 pm 
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Hmm, what about audio? How does it sound it when all the ships fire at once? Doesn't it distort he sound a bit? My guess is it does (and quite a lot) :(

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 Post subject: Re: New total of ships and fighters for a Rebellion Remake?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:33 am 
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Will the audio overflow its buffers? I hope the engine can handle multiple sounds, in a way similiar to the model loading. I was reading some OpenAL sound tutorials and they talk about how to load in sounds into temporary buffers in memory to be played; until the max of the sound card is reached. (other commands does sound exist test, is it playing, all co-ordinated into a maximum mix of sounds in a queue).

I think there are checks that can be made to how much a sound card can take, maybe also for a video card, since everyone's computer is set up different. It would solve and adjust for cards and video cards that may not be up to it. Something more to check. I think I can just load up of bunch of sounds and see what happens. A mix of maybe 16 sounds or a horrible screaching sound of 10,000 turbolaser firing. 8O


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 Post subject: Re: New total of ships and fighters for a Rebellion Remake?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:02 pm 
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No no, what I meant was interference of waves (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interference), although I couldn't remember the proper term. If two sound samples (waves) are played in very short sequence, the resulting sound very "distorted" by the interference (try playing two samples within few ms and hear what I mean :)). Now that I think of it...perhaps one possible solution might be to use more than one sample of the same sound to add variability to the mix (or noise :)) or keep track of each sample and simply skip it's playback if it's already started playing recently (in ms possibly).

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 Post subject: Re: New total of ships and fighters for a Rebellion Remake?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:19 pm 
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Slocket wrote:

We are the Clones...
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Wow. If I ever had that kind of fleet show up at my door, I'd quit the game for life lol. What happens when you hit fleet group 1? Does half the screen light up? Sweet Jesus lol.


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 Post subject: Re: New total of ships and fighters for a Rebellion Remake?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 12:47 am 
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:lol: yeh, 10,000 ships is a bit overkill. 8)

It turns the night monitor into a very bright GREEN color. :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: New total of ships and fighters for a Rebellion Remake?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 5:51 pm 
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How come this thread died? I'm bumping this because this would be interesting to see in the near future..

Moribundus wrote:
No no, what I meant was interference of waves (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interference), although I couldn't remember the proper term. If two sound samples (waves) are played in very short sequence, the resulting sound very "distorted" by the interference (try playing two samples within few ms and hear what I mean :)). Now that I think of it...perhaps one possible solution might be to use more than one sample of the same sound to add variability to the mix (or noise :)) or keep track of each sample and simply skip it's playback if it's already started playing recently (in ms possibly).


So if we can restrict the play of sounds (which is definately possible) we can avoid that distortion. Maybe we can also do a "distance to object" test from the camera and only play the sounds close to the camera? And maybe alerts could be fed through the GUI via text instead of more sounds?

And as SLocket said, 10,000 would be overkill. So maybe the cpu power that it takes to reder the extra 9,000 ships could be used to render the enemy fleet, manage sounds, move the models, and particle effects like lasers, explosions, etc. If 10,000 ships can be loaded on the screen no problem though, I don't see why a low poly space battle with 1,000 ships per-side would be a problem...


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 Post subject: Re: New total of ships and fighters for a Rebellion Remake?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:34 pm 
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The game engine does restrict far away sounds from playing. There is fora ll cards a sound buffer limit on how many sounds can be played at once. The sounds are loaded up into the sound buffers 'files in memory'. Then the 3D calaculation are done to determine the mix and sound levels, etc. Using DirectX sound program funtions that come with DX9. So in reality you never hear 10,000 laser firing. Only those close lasers and engine sounds, explosions, all mixed together.

correct about interference. Some times a common mistake in programming. hardware delay etc. Causing beat frenquency (F1 -F2)
http://www.podcomplex.com/guide/physics.html
The game program must make sure what sound is being played, what is loaded and exists, then freeing up that memory and resources after it is played (mixed together). (so there is no interference as stated above, I wrote the program so each sound is tracked and make sure if one is being played 'exist'). I think maybe 16 dynamic sounds can be mixed and played at once on my very old SB card? So far I had no problems. The screen lighting up green is a bit of humor.

I think 1000 captial ships per side should be fine in a given battle. I want the game to be strategic and tactical, else why care if one or two captial ship get blown away. Why make each ship have a detail damage model. I want each ship to count for something and be valuable and complex. Not a simple RTS mindless million unit Zerg bum rush. ;)

Even more so than in the original Rebellion. Similiar to StarFleet Battles you have armor, shields, shield generators, engines, power plant, auxillary power, hyperdrive, targeting control, life support, tractor beams, damage control, ship marines, officers, hangars, missiles, command and control, etc. :)


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 Post subject: Re: New total of ships and fighters for a Rebellion Remake?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:09 am 
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I will say this much. In writing the 3D portion of my game, I've come to appreciate Empire at War just a bit more than I did originally. In doing a stress test of my code, I was only able to fit about twenty or so capital ships on each side before seeing any unplayable lag (and my desktop packs a punch). This, too, was before loading the fighters, background debris and planets, interface, et cetera.

http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak- ... 2_9547.jpg
Granted, that's the reason why. Now I can scale this thing back. Decrease the size, lower the quality, and get it to less than a mb and could then reasonably fit quite a few on the screen. But then reviewers give my game a low score because of the low quality :P Typically, game reviewers are few and far from programmers but anyway.

It's ultimately going to be a tough call.

Or I can just create some really ingenious system to load and display huge models without your system exploding. That's the option I will likely end up going for ;)


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 Post subject: Re: New total of ships and fighters for a Rebellion Remake?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 8:58 pm 
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The original EAW had both sides limited in how many ships you could have , via points, around 20 per side? It is a problem. What I was using in those above pictures are much, much lower polygons and simple textures no shaders.

If you can figure out a way to place all those displayed up close and those further away less polygons, and far away a bitmap billboard. Some of those models on the net I seen are quite huge! :?


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 Post subject: Re: New total of ships and fighters for a Rebellion Remake?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 11:20 pm 
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Well, the above pictures from before I bumped the topic were all low-poly VSDs. I would immediately assume that a ship with that amount of detail, multiplied by a number only around 20-25, would crash the game (or lag like you said). Maybe at different zoom levels a lower-poly model is shown instead of your high poly ISD? I'm not sure how that would work, if you've tried it, or what, but it makes sense in my head right now...


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 Post subject: Re: New total of ships and fighters for a Rebellion Remake?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 11:29 pm 
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Yep that's called "Level of Detail" (LOD) and that's what most games use.

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 Post subject: Re: New total of ships and fighters for a Rebellion Remake?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:41 am 
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Yep, I guess they figured that one out years ago. 8O I guess the DB engine uses mipmaps. A basic technique. It seems that even the original Rebellion used three LOD object mesh models/textures for the ships. Near, Medium, Far distance.

There maybe even an application to produce three levels of lower polygon models from an original model. Reading that article, it seems to be different methods to achieve the desired results. It can be simple to rather complicated.

I learn something new every day. Good find.

EDIT: Actually, I do not know what the DB engine uses. I guess it must be similiar to DX9 algorithms since there is only one model loaded into memory.


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