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 Post subject: Space battles
PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 8:19 pm 
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What would you change? (pie in the sky ideas)

If Rebellion2 was being made by a team of developers with lots of experience, unlimited resources and too much spare time ontheir hands under my control, what would I have them do differently?

There have always been things I wanted to be different in Rebellion, but never really thought to much about them as there was a snowballs chance in hell of anything being done. But the thoughts of Rebellion2 sparked off that particular part of my brain.

My main problem was/is the space battles. On a couple of fronts.

Firstly, until the advent of Interdictors, it was impossible to trap you opponants fleet. They can just jump away as you start from miles away. Your fighters will get a few shots off at best. I normally end up splitting my fleets up to lure the AI in. What I want is a way to to trap fleet and force them to fight. How this would be done is something I have not previously figured out. What I am currently mulling over is this:

Possibly have 3 levels (pick a number) of levels of orbit in a system? That way you could dictate where in a system you orbit, but you can only jump if you are the outermost fleet (efectively a fleet at a higher level could block you in). This way you could effectively trap fleets (or be trapped). To escape, a trapped fleet would need to fight its way out, running the gauntlet in the 3d battlefield of the outer fleet.

Additionally if you happen to jump to the same level as a fleet already in orbit, then the battle would start with fleets practically on top of each other. Instant brawl!

Further to this, there needs to be anadvantage to being in a low orbit, or else you would never go there. What I think would work is this:

Only at a low level orbit can you launch a ground assult. But if an enemy fleet attacks your system and jumps inside your defending fleet, then it can assult without nocking your fleet out. This makes the orbit system a two edged sword. A bit mor realistic IMHO.

But wait you say, you can'thave two fleets in the same system.... Can you?

Why not? there could be a stand off perhaps? Allowing both fleets to remain at different orbits? (this would llow either fleet to bring in reinforcements before attacking, or simply use a fleet to cover a ground assault.

Or...

Perhaps, don't allow two opposing fleets in orbit, but DO allow similtanious ground and space battles? An attacking fleet could then try to escort its assult/transport vessles to the planets surface. The make up of the assult success would depend on how many vessles you could safely get to the planets surface.

Other then the systems stuff above, the other thing I would like is more control over fighter squadrons. Just yesterday I wanted my x and a wings to defend my b and y wings going for a capitol ship. Instead they fly across the map to some other squadron of TIEs and leave the bombers to get slaughtered.

There are two ideas of mine, your thoughts?

Jez.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:22 pm 
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hmm seems like a pretty clever idea to me. perhaps I will incorporate it into my game

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 6:54 pm 
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Ah, so you are actually in the process of making a Rebellion2?

What language and graphics engine are you using? (just in case ther is any way I can help)


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 1:22 am 
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sorry it took me so long to reply, Ive been distracted by college, a new girlfriend, and getting plastered out of my skull at the bar.

hmmm am I making Rebellion 2? Maybe? I guess the best I can say is that my game is a Rebellion inspired tactical space combat game. My original idea was to make it at the individual ship level. In other words you are the captain of a ship, instead of being a galaxy level controller like in Rebellion.

I am planning on releasing a public beta eventually, but I've got massive amounts of work to do yet. As I'm writing the game engine from scratch, I've got a lot of work to do before it even closely resembles a game.

If you've got some time to waste, I would like to direct you to my website, its got some pictures and the video I posted here, as well as some text explaining the idea behind the game

http://nordwindranger.com/midoe.aspx

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 5:09 pm 
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Hhhmmm looks interesting. I like the idea!

I will be sure to keep an eye on it.

Good luck!


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:50 pm 
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JeZuS wrote:
Hhhmmm looks interesting. I like the idea!

I will be sure to keep an eye on it.

Good luck!


As Do I.

Best Of luck


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 7:22 pm 
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Had some ideas that could be used in Rebellion 2 scenarios Perhaps.

The first would allow people to send ships to the outer sections of a system. (Perhaps even blockading the system if all outer system areas are occupied by enemy fleets?) In any case, fleets in the outer system would allow a Re-enforcement Tab to be available in Fleet Battle mode if another fleet attacks the inner system.


Image

Image

Upon calling for re-enforcements you would have to select what part of the fleet battle area the new ships would microjump to from outside the battle.

So, ideas?

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 12:41 pm 
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Wow, now that's a brilliant idea...it might solve some of my own problems with placement of jump nodes for subspace/hyperspace routes.

If we said that jump nodes could be present only in outer systems (eg. because it's far away from all gravity wells), then it would be easy to blockade the whole system just by controlling all the outer systems with jump nodes.

Selecting arrival point for reinforcements wouldn't be necesary, since we can imagine the battlefield as a sphere (or a box) and reinforcements would simply arrive somewhere near the borders, depending on which side they're coming from -> thus reinforcements could possibly surround enemy, or cut him off.

This way could be also done retreating from a battle. A fleet would have to first get to the border of a battlefield and then jump away (either using jump node or by leaving to the nearest outer system).

If we said that a jump would takle at least one day (from planet to planet), we could then limit reinforcements only to fleets that wait ready for being called in as reinforcements (only fleets that didn't do any jump today can serve as reinforcements).

In this one-day-jump model there is another problem - what if both attacker and the defender decide to attack each other at the same time..they would just swap places (defender would jump to outer system and the attacker would jump to the inner system). Hmm, maybe it should be up to the defender of that system to be more careful.

Oh and I like the UI you suggested, def :)

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 2:38 pm 
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@ Defender

yeah thats a pretty good idea. (the picture was pretty amusing as well. I bow to your superior "paint" skills")

I was thinking about working a system like this into my game (IDOE), but it kind of got lost in the clutter of all my other ideas, and hasn't made it in yet.

Currently Fleets are randomly assigned one of any number of pre-calculated entrance positions for a planet when they jump into the system. The fleet is then arranged in a random formation, to ensure that none of the ships are overlapping each other.

@Moribundus
I'm also using a "one day jump to anywhere" model, although this one day is multiplied by the slowest hyperdrive in the fleet to get the true travel time. Remember in Star Wars, a fast hyperdrive is something like .5, and a slower one is like .75
This seemed like an easy way of going about solving this problem.

I will have to read that document that you were talking about, I'm getting rather interested in what your planning on doing with your game!

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:30 pm 
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nordwindranger wrote:
I'm also using a "one day jump to anywhere" model, although this one day is multiplied by the slowest hyperdrive in the fleet to get the true travel time. Remember in Star Wars, a fast hyperdrive is something like .5, and a slower one is like .75
This seemed like an easy way of going about solving this problem.


Yes, but I'm using rebellion's real-time turn system, where one day/turn is the smallest indivisible time interval, so for game's simplicity I assume that ship travels from planet to planet one whole day (it's actually few hours, but we don't have them in the game).

Hmm, but in "reality" this would probably have the same effect, both fleets enter hyperspace and miss each other (and defender bashes his head against a wall, since he left his colony unprotected :twisted: ).

nordwindranger wrote:
Currently Fleets are randomly assigned one of any number of pre-calculated entrance positions for a planet when they jump into the system. The fleet is then arranged in a random formation, to ensure that none of the ships are overlapping each other.


I'm not sure I understand your problem exactly. Why not use simple grid formation like rebellion? The problem of course might occur if there would be already fleet "standing" in the entrance position and thus blocking the incoming fleet (accidentaly filling some spaces in the grid, which the computer wouldn't be aware of).

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 11:26 pm 
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:oops: come to think of it, although my game is quasi-realtime, most events are only checked to see if it is the right day, so travel will really be in days no matter what. This will change if I change the way hyperspace exit/enter events are checked for.

Hmm oddly enough, I never thought to hard about using a grid. I just knew that I needed a way to put a random amount of ships into a formation.
The problem was that fleets have to be any size from one to infinite. Eventually a grid will run out of spaces (unless if you make it real big). In theory a grid made sense, but in actuallity it was kind of an odd concept. Because formations are three dimensional, you end up with a stacked series of grids, which ends up being no different than a cube. So you end up with the question, how to I arrange an undetermined amount of ships in a cube of space.

I ended up using an interesting method that pushes ships that are colliding apart. This method runs before anything is rendered on the screen

well i had originally posted the code for this method, but it was hard to read.
Here's a link http://nordwindblog.blogspot.com/2007/03/gamedev-2.html to my blog post the day i wrote the code, it includes a picture of the code, which you can click on to blow up.

edit: hmm for some reason the pic won't blow up for me. oh well, forget about the whole thing. it does produce some really cool looking formations though..

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:44 am 
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Well I'm glad I helped spurr some inspiration. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Space battles
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 4:44 am 
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JeZuS wrote:

My main problem was/is the space battles. On a couple of fronts.

Firstly, until the advent of Interdictors, it was impossible to trap you opponants fleet. They can just jump away as you start from miles away. Your fighters will get a few shots off at best. I normally end up splitting my fleets up to lure the AI in. What I want is a way to to trap fleet and force them to fight. How this would be done is something I have not previously figured out. What I am currently mulling over is this:

Possibly have 3 levels (pick a number) of levels of orbit in a system? That way you could dictate where in a system you orbit, but you can only jump if you are the outermost fleet (efectively a fleet at a higher level could block you in). This way you could effectively trap fleets (or be trapped). To escape, a trapped fleet would need to fight its way out, running the gauntlet in the 3d battlefield of the outer fleet.

Additionally if you happen to jump to the same level as a fleet already in orbit, then the battle would start with fleets practically on top of each other. Instant brawl!

Further to this, there needs to be anadvantage to being in a low orbit, or else you would never go there. What I think would work is this:

Only at a low level orbit can you launch a ground assult. But if an enemy fleet attacks your system and jumps inside your defending fleet, then it can assult without nocking your fleet out. This makes the orbit system a two edged sword. A bit mor realistic IMHO.

But wait you say, you can'thave two fleets in the same system.... Can you?

Why not? there could be a stand off perhaps? Allowing both fleets to remain at different orbits? (this would llow either fleet to bring in reinforcements before attacking, or simply use a fleet to cover a ground assault.

Or...

Perhaps, don't allow two opposing fleets in orbit, but DO allow similtanious ground and space battles? An attacking fleet could then try to escort its assult/transport vessles to the planets surface. The make up of the assult success would depend on how many vessles you could safely get to the planets surface.

Other then the systems stuff above, the other thing I would like is more control over fighter squadrons. Just yesterday I wanted my x and a wings to defend my b and y wings going for a capitol ship. Instead they fly across the map to some other squadron of TIEs and leave the bombers to get slaughtered.

There are two ideas of mine, your thoughts?

Jez.



I'm not so sure I like the idea of multi level orbiting, it seems like an odd detail just to get fleets to fight. Perhaps allow reinforcements? From inside each system? Or make it a pre-requisite, that in order to jump to light speed, you have to pass whatever fleet just jumped in. Like a blockade of sorts. Think Empire strikes back with Hoth. So instead of just turning around in Rebellion and jumping out, whatever fleet is stationed at the planet, they have to now punch through a blockade just to hit light speed. This would actually make ion cannons useful (never seem to need them in game as I typically prefer to go with superior forces which are far more consistent.)

The other thing you mentioned, that I love, is having ground and space battles happen at the same time. This is a very star warsian idea. I have no idea how to implement it. Maybe gaining momentum on either front could help on the other front?

Yeah, I'd like more direct control over fleets and figthers. Perhaps a macro system? Do order X as long as A remains. Then do order Z...

Those are my thoughts.


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 Post subject: Re: Space battles
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:30 pm 
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JediLaz wrote:
Or make it a pre-requisite, that in order to jump to light speed, you have to pass whatever fleet just jumped in. Like a blockade of sorts. Think Empire strikes back with Hoth. So instead of just turning around in Rebellion and jumping out, whatever fleet is stationed at the planet, they have to now punch through a blockade just to hit light speed. This would actually make ion cannons useful (never seem to need them in game as I typically prefer to go with superior forces which are far more consistent.)


Well, that is certainly a whole lot simpler! I may have been thinking to hard to see the obvious simple answer :-)

JediLaz wrote:
The other thing you mentioned, that I love, is having ground and space battles happen at the same time. This is a very star warsian idea. I have no idea how to implement it.


Yeah, I get major mind-gasms just thinking about it. Pitty I am not a games developer with too much spare time!

P.S. I quickly posted on NordWindRanger site and he is still working on his game, and going well. He wanted me to say hi to everyone because SWRebellion.com is blocked from where he is currently, so he can't visit or post here.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 8:01 pm 
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I think the most inspiring sci-fi space battle clip I can find is the season three premiere episode of Battlestar Galactica. You can search Youtube for "Galactica New Caprica" for entire battle sequences though most have been dubbed with lame music tracks. I post the following clip which is near the middle of the battle sequence, this is by far the coolest thing ever put into a space battle on tv or film. This how flexible a game engine should be with tactics, I just enjoy the creativity of the producers of Battlestar Galactica... anyways about the scene and video clips.

Previous to this scene, raptors (similar to gunship in tie fighter game) launch decoy missles to mimic battlestar signatures and turn back the way the came. Cylons move to engage the decoys. This queues the upgrising to being on the planet surface and opens the way to Galactica's attack.

In this scene, Galactica exits FTL (hyperspace eq.) in upper atmosphere to dead stop and begins a free fall into the planet's gravity, the underside begins to glow cherry red as the vipers (starfighters) launch into the atmosphere and about 100 meters from the ground the Galactica jumps back into FTL.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i77lJOu0LDE

Following this scene, Galactica has made a short jump to outer orbit and is calculating FTL flightpath and intercepting the cylon basestars until the civilian starships can launch off of New Caprica. Galactica starts to take heavy damage and Battlestar Pegasus jumps into combat against the admiral's order and battle plans to stay clear of the battle. Pegasus nukes one basestar before evacuating to Galactica. Pegasus is left on autopilot and collides with two more cylon basestars destroying them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1AM9ydNrY0

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