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 Post subject: Rebellion 2... 'Research' Ideas?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:43 am 
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Hey guys!

I had hoped to wait a bit longer before revealing any of the new stuff I've done with Rebellion 2 but... I got caught up with something and am in need of suggestions.

Here's the problem. I'm currently working on the technology tree and the researching and unlocking of technologies (new fighters, units, etc). I've long since completed the tree itself, but I'm not sure if I want to use the previous research system or not. In the first Rebellion, from my understanding, research was handled automatically. The speed of research per technology branch (regiments, starfighters, starships) was increased via missions. The player did not choose what to research, rather, it was chosen sequentially from a pre-determined order.

So what I need from you guys is some ideas on what you'd like to see (either keep the old or suggest a new). I'll take... let's say the top four and post them up/have you guys vote on them.


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 Post subject: Re: Rebellion 2... 'Research' Ideas?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:38 pm 
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Oh, there's a couple of parameters/changes I should mention to help you guide your thoughts.
I didn't want to 'unveil' them until later but now is a good a time as any.

'Rebellion 2 Additions' wrote:
  1. 1. Planet Population: Each planet now maintains a population which can be increased by various means and decreased by obvious means. There were many reasons for making this addition. The primary motivation, though, was to fix the 'planet hopping' feel of the first game (i.e. it provides another variable in the planet takeover process). Trying to diplomatically 'sway' recently captured Coruscant, for instance, will be much harder than trying to diplomatically 'sway' recently captured and barely inhabited Yavin.
  2. 2. Galactic Credits: Credits have been added to the game as an additional resource. I wont go how they will be generated quite yet or where they'll be used but don't worry, it's not a revamp, just an addition. If you think about it, though, their implementation is kind of obvious. It's really something that should have been there in the first game...
  3. 3. Special Forces: This will probably be the biggest announcement of them all. The 'Special Forces' units of the first game (Bothan Spies, Noghri Commandos, etc) have been removed. This was not something I had hoped to do. Java's lack of multiple inheritance made it impossible for me to make a hybrid 'Officer/Regiment' class without taking really drastic measures. So to counter this, I've developed a new system. In short, I've basically given secondary characters (Veers, Wedge, etc) the ability to recruit as well. Each faction now has a list of 'generic officers,' officers which can be recruited multiple times throughout the game. So, for instance, Wedge might recruit a 'Corellian Smuggler,' an unnamed officer with generic stats and a bonus to Combat. Generics will not be able to recruit, and main units will continue to recruit secondary characters only until the pool is exhausted. I've not yet determined a system for deciding the outcome for generic recruitment (whether its decided randomly or the player chooses somehow). I'll probably have a vote for this some time in the future.


Yes, a bit of a long read but hopefully these will help you come up with some ideas.
No limit. Create a new building if you'd like or use the new generic officers or galactic credits if you desire.


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 Post subject: Re: Rebellion 2... 'Research' Ideas?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 10:43 pm 
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I didn't like the fact, that in Rebellion, early in the game before personnel were placed on research missions, things were being researched.

I would be for the player being able to choose what/when things were researched.

I love the idea of population and credits.

The special forces not being available isn't a big deal to me, because personnel in Rebellion -if you've kept it the same for Reb2- were able to perform all of the missions special forces could perform, with the exception of reconnaissance, which can be performed by ships. Of course there's the chance you'd engage in a battle, but if you gave personnel the ability to perform reconnaissance missions the player could avoid space battles if he/she weren't prepared.

I don't know how far along you are with the encyclopedia pics and what not, or even if you've kept it the same. But if it's the same I'd love to be able to have each planet have it's own pic, i.e. pics showing the suface of the individual worlds. The enclyclopedia in Rebellion was pretty bland in that it just showed orbital pics of planets, and that was limited to the amount of "different" planets that were in the game.

By the way it's good to know you're still working on Reb2, I'm pretty excited about trying it out.


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 Post subject: Re: Rebellion 2... 'Research' Ideas?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 7:25 am 
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Yanno, that's actually a good question. I'll be honest, I am indeed using the old images and data from the previous game in my current build. It's not something I plan to continue doing, however. It's just a matter of finding someone with more... artistic talent than myself who's willing to assist :P

There are some notable changes in the layout, though. While planet systems, for instance, are essentially the same, the planets themselves have been reorganized. There were some placement mistakes in the previous game that couldn't be ignored. Most of the officers from Rebellion will be making a reappearance as well. No real changes there, only additions. I've appended the pool of characters for each faction to include some later recruitables such as Corran Horn, Winter, Ysanne, and so on. I'm also debating adding event-unlocked officers such as Jacen and Jaina as well, but I'm nowheres near a decision on that one. Need to make sure I can do so without unbalancing the game.

But anyway. Off topic again. Recon is another thing I'm still working out. Java's lack of memory management makes it hard to continue the previous games 'ghost' fleet system (where you'd see fleets on a planet that weren't actually there). I'm sure I'll come up with a solid compromise, though.

And thank you! :) Honestly, I can't remember the last day I didn't spend at least an hour working on it. Of course, because I'm the sole programmer on it, I hardly have as much finished as I would like. And it doesn't help that I've taken a back track to re-program some areas I felt too weak. In fact, just yesterday I scrapped the entire event system in lieu of a new script-based interface that (I hope) will allow you to build your own in game events. Sort of a step backwards but, at the same time, sort of a step forwards. I'm hoping to post a MUCH bigger update soon though :)


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 Post subject: Re: Rebellion 2... 'Research' Ideas?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:31 pm 
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Quote:
event-unlocked officers such as Jacen and Jaina


You mean "Han and Leia and bed" event? Sounds like the Sims doing a "woohoo" :)

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 Post subject: Re: Rebellion 2... 'Research' Ideas?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:20 pm 
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I would like the research speed bonus for characters working at a bigger Starship Facility, such as if there are four starbases it would give bonus of 20% speed.

Research options that can be paired, such as shield penetrating proton torpedos, and point defense to counter act them. Lets you have some decisions on research.

I like the population idea. The planets seem a bit empty and it should take alot to sway a fully colonized world.

I would like to keep the Decoy Agent system for away missions. That will take some kind of spec forces or generic character to cover you main character mission.

Some simple ground battle 2D (somewhat like those card based games, Warlords 4) to watch, for invasions and mission reports.

I am glad to see you are still plugging away at this game. It does take some time.


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 Post subject: Re: Rebellion 2... 'Research' Ideas?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:28 pm 
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Quote:
Yanno, that's actually a good question. I'll be honest, I am indeed using the old images and data from the previous game in my current build. It's not something I plan to continue doing, however. It's just a matter of finding someone with more... artistic talent than myself who's willing to assist


I'm not much of an artist myself, digital or otherwise, but there are a lot of Star Wars pics out there that can be utilized. I've got a fair sized collection of pics that I'm planning on using for Rebellion TCs (I'm nearly done with a Clone Wars one) if that's a route you'd like to go, I'd be more than happy to send you pics I've collected or continue scouring the internet for appropriate pics.


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 Post subject: Re: Rebellion 2... 'Research' Ideas?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:16 am 
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I definitely thinking adding "credits" to the resources required is a good idea; it gives the impression that an economy element is also important in the game (which makes protecting your systems from pirates and/or blockades more important as they help support your "cash flow"). Also, if you want to "hire" Bounty Hunters or "pay" informants for info, you do that with credits.

The population idea is good, but I think there still needs to be some enhancement to the current system. I think having three political systems displayed on the population bar (GREEN = Imperial, RED = Alliance, BLUE = neutral) is more realistic. I never did like the fact that all systems HAD to have just Imperial/Alliance support, with "Neutral" being an approximate 50/50 split on popular support. This also opens the possibility of "buying" resources from Neutral systems without having to control/occupy them. This makes diplomacy more important and gives some importance to the concept of having an economy support your military efforts.

For research I never did like the locked in research tree. I liked the idea of technology research similar to the Civilization game, where you 'researched" from several choices, and after researching two or three more basic ideas, more robust technologies would be "unlocked" for research (i.e. you would have to research metallurgy and the wheel before you could build a tank). I'm not sure of "what" you could research, other than:

improved turbolasers,
improved ion cannons,
mass drivers,
heavy turbolasers,
heavy ion cannons,
improved shielding,
heavy shielding,
improved light power cores (for small ships)
improved medium power cores (for medium ships)
improved heavy power cores (for heavy ships)
high power cores - light ships
high power cores - medium ships
high power cores - heavy ships
high power cores - Super ships
different grades of armor for ships
starfighter hyperdrives (also for use in Tie's)
starfighter shields (also for use in Tie's)
shield penetrating torpedoes
HIMS system - light ships
HIMS system - medium ships
HIMS system - heavy ships
and etc, etc, etc,

I don't like the idea of lossing the Special Forces. I've always enjoyed using them, just not some of the "quirks" of no ongoing espionage missions, etc. I've always fancied it would be cool to have an espionage mission on a specific unit (ship, starfighter or troop regiment), that would provide information about the units location when it would "move" to a different system (using standard detection rules every time); like planting a "mole" in the unit.


I took some time to "dig through" the improvements most players would want (mostly from the What are people's 5 ESSENTIAL wants for Reb2? thread), and here is what I compiled. There were approximately two dozen ideas that I thought were worthwhile, with the top five being:

1) Capturing enemy ships. Basically this boiled down to having a better tactical commands during space battles. This also includes options for "ramming" enemy ships (but this would have to be a "special" type item); targetting specific ships systems (shields, engines, gun emplacements, etc.); landing/re-launching fighters; more fighter groups than 4 (with mixed groups of fighters & bombers - the fighters would "escort" the bombers), etc. I think to keep from using every ship as a "ram", you would have to have a special ship unit crew the ship, and a recruitable character be in command (they would get a chance to escape but may get killed/captured). For capturing ships, you must use certain troop units for boarding, and then the captured ship can NOT be used for the remainder of the battle.

2) Refit/Upgrade/Customize capital ships. Using the technology tree to develop better weapons, armor, shields, engines, etc. It would be nice to bring a ship back to dock and have it upgraded. This would cost extra resources/credits as well as time. You could also change items around on the basic ship makeup (more weapons, but less armor; more fighters, but less troops; basically generate a give-n-take system. The more changes done, the more cost and time.

3) Multi-factions: Have the Hapes consortium, Corporate Sector, etc. be neutral factions during the game. Have them also create fleets/troops/fighters and control systems. Use diplomacy to sway them to your side (and keep them there, lest they quit or join the other side) or invade them (where they possibly join the other side or just remain "neutral" but fight you).

4) Hyperlanes: travel between systems on hyper lanes is quicker. This also means having space stations/nav buoys in deep space where interdictors can protect systems/sectors from invaders. "Survey ships" would be required to find new hyper lanes into new territory. Hyper lane maps could be bought from informants for money, or stolen via espionage missions. System-to-system travel per the original game would be practically non-existent (you could still try, but most should end in failure: i.e. ship destruction).

5) More units: More capital ships, more characters, more troop types, more starfighters, more planetary systems, more resources per system; basically MORE of everything.

Other good ideas (not in a special order):

a) Pre-game "setup" editor.
b) On going espionage missions/auto-explore probes.
c) Missions for starfighters (like sabotage missions against troops/facilities/ships/fighter units).
d) Specialized systems (Kuat, Fondor make faster ships; Thyferra "heals" characters troops faster; etc).
e) Crew experience. This could be done using the the "number" of days since the unit was created. If damaged during battles, then when replacements arrive the experience would average out with the "new recruits". For ships to have experience, there should be a new "unit" for ship crews, otherwise how do "chunks" of metal get experience? They can't, it's the crew that gets experience. Starfighter units would work the same in that they would get experience based on longevity, plus an averaging when new replacements arrive. Extra bonus experience would be added for surviving battles. This means ground troops would also have to change to be more like fighter units (A troop regiment being made up of twelve companies/squads/whatever, like a fighter unit being twelve individual fighters).
f) More ground assault/combat options. Maybe taking over a system takes several days (a ground combat scenario like the space based battles? similar to EAW but not that complex).
g) Nuisance events with Crime Lords/Bounty Hunters/Pirates.
h) Espionage to steal: "plans" for ships, facilities, troops, hyper lanes. Deep plant "moles" to keeps tabs on certain units/characters.
i) Build multiple units at a time at systems with multiple similar-facilites. For example: currently if you have 10 shipyards all are used, with new ships being built only after the previous ship is complete. Change this so you can specify which shipyards contribute to which ship; i.e. 5 work on an ISD, while 3 others build a Lancer, and the final 2 building starfighters.
j) Better blockade scenarios: The best example given: How can an un-armed transport blockade an entire system? I roughed out a system such that a number of ships required (based on numbers of turbolasers/ion cannons/fighters) versus the economical outpout (number of mines/refineries) of the system; so basically the more a system produces, the more ships required to pull off a total blockade, otherwise the blockade is only partially (a percentage) effective.
k) Hero Units/Flagships: These units (only so many allowed per side) get special combat bonuses, and popular support bonuses. Of course should they "lose" a battle, negative "bonuses" would apply.
l) Special one-time event/items: Finding the Katanna Fleet;finding Despot Xim's treasure;finding the Armory ships of Alderaan; etc, etc.
m) Timelines: Clone Wars, Galactic Civil War, Vong-NR, and/or just pick Side A vs Side B.

These are just some of the ideas most have submitted that I thought would really make for a nice game. There were several other ideas that I thought were too distractive or impossible to do without creating a mess of a game (hyper micro management). But, you need to decide for yourself. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Rebellion 2... 'Research' Ideas?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:24 am 
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Hey guys! I've read through your ideas (even yours, DarthTex :P) and am currently writing up a response. I've got midterms this week, though, so I may not be able to properly respond until Friday. Just wanted to give you guys a heads up. Haven't ignored it ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Rebellion 2... 'Research' Ideas?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 9:45 am 
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Thanks to the tips provided in the list....

Biggest problem you have to remember is that more eras or even current eras require massive manhours worth of not only data collection but 2D artist work and when you want more ships, 3D modelling.

Most of us who are working on these projects are coders through and through and artwork not really our forte..... When progress is closer to completion, I will probably start advertising in more open spaces for artists.

I have quite a few of the ideas planned for work but alot of that is 'fluff' which can be added post-release.


POST NOTE TO DAVIDADAS >> I would still like to jump on msn sometime with you and chat about different implementations of classes. Also its nice to have someone to bounce ideas off :)


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 Post subject: Re: Rebellion 2... 'Research' Ideas?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:41 am 
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steel wrote:
Biggest problem you have to remember is that more eras or even current eras require massive manhours worth of not only data collection but 2D artist work and when you want more ships, 3D modelling.

Nobody said any of this was going to be easy. This is just a list I compiled of what I/others thought would make the game "really nice"; not to say there aren't other (better) ideas, or some of these could be done without. I'd think the biggest problem would be programming this monster. Getting the "data" might be tedious, or hard to find, but not nearly as difficult as the programming aspect.

Still waiting for your "response" David :? :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Rebellion 2... 'Research' Ideas?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 11:45 am 
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I have no doubt that data collection would be a shitload easier than coding this. Trust me. I know ;) Going through your suggestions here is my thoughts and/or notes on them.

1) Capturing enemy ships. - Implemented. Considering being able to use captured enemy ships as part of special enemy infiltration.
2) Refit/Upgrade/Customize capital ships. - Possible to be done as per your list of research upgrades. Would give a bit more options to just the SSD+fighter fleets.
3) Multi-factions: Done. Going to be 6 teams in my release, Available for 6p multi and hopefully combinations of AI as well(programming AI is not my forte :) )
4) Hyperlanes: One of the hard-to-code, not much use type things. Hyperlanes would be annoying to code, more annoying to use in game I think.
5) More units: Content Builder persons job

Other good ideas (not in a special order):

a) Pre-game "setup" editor. - Possible though at this stage my editor is not integrated into the game it is purely an external program(like RebEd1)
b) On going espionage missions/auto-explore probes. - Will implement. Havent done missions yet
c) Missions for starfighters. - Might implement. Will trial and see
d) Specialized systems - Already implemented. Content Builder selects these.
e) Crew experience. - Implemented but based on battles survived rather than your suggested method of time/replacements.
f) More ground assault/combat options. - Willing to add to this however will need options because I cant think of anything good.
g) Nuisance events with Crime Lords/Bounty Hunters/Pirates. - Events not done but I hopefully plan to add more events...
h) Espionage to steal: - Considering. Will see how it affects MP.
i) Build multiple units at a time at systems with multiple similar-facilites. - Useless and too hard to show in the UI. Noone will want a ISD and 10 fighters to build in 200 days when they can have their ISD in the first 120 days then just pump out fighters for the last 80.
j) Better blockade scenarios: - Not done but will definately implement as you have suggested.
k) Hero Units/Flagships: - If I do the Refit/upgrade Cap Ships then this is a definate as well. Will be easy to implement if i Did
l) Special one-time event/items: Events should be easily added so i dont see why not.
m) Timelines: Content guys job :)

With regards to research tree, im looking into options that go much like the civ tree did


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 Post subject: Re: Rebellion 2... 'Research' Ideas?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:52 am 
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steel wrote:
i) Build multiple units at a time at systems with multiple similar-facilites. - Useless and too hard to show in the UI. Noone will want a ISD and 10 fighters to build in 200 days when they can have their ISD in the first 120 days then just pump out fighters for the last 80.

"Useless"? I would think not. Using your example, what good is an ISD in combat without fighter cover? Yes, more than likely you will still win the battle, but a severely damage victorious ship isn't worth much afterwards for follow on operations (i.e. 1 ISD-no fighters vs Alliance Escort Carrier with 3 X-wings, 3 YY-wings). If it's going to take 120 days to get my ISD, hopefully after managing the galaxy in the mean time, I won't "forget" about my ISD; better yet, hopefully NOT forget to build fighters for it afterwards. The temptation to use it right away will probably be too much for most. But should the ISD be completed with a full compliment of fighters, then it's time to "lock-n-load" :twisted:

During the tactical battles when you "click" on a Task Force, a picture on one ship appears in the upper right hand corner. There are "side" arrows to scroll through the remaining ships in the Task Force. This could be implemented on the construction screen for building multiple items (or maybe something similar). All you would have to do is specify the number of "facilities" to be used for that particular "build"; remaining "facilities" would then be available for other (appropriate) items.

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 Post subject: Re: Rebellion 2... 'Research' Ideas?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:44 am 
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i dunno if this would work or not, but the shipyards in the books had different types of constructions sites for ships and snubfighters, would it be possible to make it so that maybe the alliance can build fighters at the same time as capital ships and maybe the imperial ships would come full of ties? one thing that bugged me about rebellion was spending all that time to build a capital ship and having no fighters when it came out, i just dont buy the empire putting all this time into making a star destroying and having any fighter support ready for it when its completed


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 Post subject: Re: Rebellion 2... 'Research' Ideas?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 11:54 pm 
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I've always been a fan of the Hearts of Iron research model, and I think it would fit in well with a Star Wars game.

Technologies can be researched by tech teams. In Star Wars, I would associate the availability of different tech teams with the control of planets, as the source of most military hardware that people will be researching is major industrial corporations, which generally have a homeworld associated with them. So controlling Kuat gives you Kuat Drive Yards, controlling Coruscant gives you BlasTech Industries, etc. While any tech team can be assigned any technology to research (assuming prerequisites have already been researched), each team has certain specialization areas. Likewise, each tech has specialization areas. Matching up the appropriate teams and research projects greatly accelerates research. You can also simultaneously research as many projects as you have tech teams, an additional incentive to controlling key worlds.

Tech Team Examples:
Kuat Drive Yards (Industrial Theory, Capital Ship Design)
Corellian Engineering Corporation (Escort Ship Design)
Kaminoan Cloners (Medicine, Decentralized Tactics)
Baktoid Armor Workshop (Droids, Blaster Weapons, Industrial Theory)
Sienar Fleet Systems (Starfighter Design, Centralized Tactics)

Research Project Examples:
Imperial Star Destroyer (Capital Ship Design, Industrial Theory)
DP-20 Corellian Gunship (Escort Ship Design, Blaster Weapons)
Clonetrooper Regiment (Medicine, Decentralized Tactics)
TIE Interceptor (Starfighter Design, Centralized Tactics)
Battledroid Regiment (Droids, Centralized Tactics)

Here's a more detailed description of the HoI2 system:
http://www.paradoxian.org/hoi2wiki/index.php/Research


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