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 Post subject: Re: OFFICIAL: Combat Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 4:21 pm 
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<!-- Cadet //-->

Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 7:28 am
Posts: 7
Location: Versailles, France
I would limit the fighters that can carry PTs really. The loadout change thing makes some bombers even more deadly. Of course, the value of the total nr of bombers I put in was far more than the EIDLN was (it was 220k worth of TBs and NFRGs). But I destroyed a LIBRTR as well in 5 cycles of a turn.

To be honest, bombers should be this deadly - the TBs I used are quite weak, usually 1 or 2 shots from anything takes them down (sidenote: the unshielded fighters are way too weak compared to the shielded ones and overpriced as well in my opinion, especially if you consider the huge drawback of having to have a carrier) so any decent CAP/CSP of fighters would've done significant damage to them.

It is the PTs that really make bombers worth it - you don't want them for anything else as they just are too weak. (and hit shields) But they are also slow so you need to provide cover for them, which is a fair tradeoff.


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 Post subject: Re: OFFICIAL: Combat Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 4:27 pm 
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<!-- Cadet //-->

Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 7:28 am
Posts: 7
Location: Versailles, France
From the moment I jumped in, this is what happened in my detection range. I don't think all kills are mine but not sure:
Code:
Destroyed Ships:
TB Kappa 28 (own)
TB Epsilon 29 (own)
TB Rho 26 (own)
TB Sigma 16 (own)
TB Sigma 3 (own)
TB Epsilon 36 (own)
TB Epsilon 15 (own)
TB Sigma 12 (own)
TB Rho 15 (own)
TB Rho 4 (own)
TB Rho 20 (own)
TD Omega 16
EIDLN Galatea
TD Omega 12
TD Omega 14
TD Omega 24
TD Omega 19
KWING Gamma 9
KWING Gamma 11
KWING Gamma 22
KWING Gamma 5
KWING Gamma 20
KWING Gamma 4
KWING Gamma 16
KWING Gamma 2
TB Rho 2 (own)
TB Sigma 33 (own)
KWING Fortress Squadron 2
KWING Fortress Squadron 1
KWING Blaze Squadron 6
KWING Blaze Squadron 9
KWING Fortress Squadron 4
KWING Blaze Squadron 8
KWING Fortress Squadron 6
KWING Fortress Squadron 7
KWING Blaze Squadron 1
KWING Blaze Squadron 5
KWING Fortress Squadron 9
TB Rho 19 (own)
TB Rho 25 (own)
TB Rho 36 (own)
TB Sigma 18 (own)
TB Kappa 6 (own)
TB Epsilon 18 (own)
TB Rho 27 (own)
TB Rho 31 (own)
TB Epsilon 23 (own)
TB Sigma 29 (own)
TB Rho 7 (own)
TB Sigma 24 (own)
TB Rho 32 (own)
TB Sigma 6 (own)
TB Rho 29 (own)
TB Sigma 2 (own)
LIBRTR Home Base One
KWING Gamma 21
KWING Gamma 17
KWING Blaze Squadron 2
KWING Blaze Squadron 4
KWING Fortress Squadron 3
KWING Blaze Squadron 7
KWING Gamma 12
KWING Blaze Squadron 3
KWING Fortress Squadron 8
KWING Fortress Squadron 5


For those that are interested, I'm using a very easy (and very sloppy) parser for the log files to extract all the destroyed/jumped ships made in Autohotkey. The code for that is as follows:
Code:
FileSelectFile, SourceFile, 3,, Pick a report file to analyze.

if SourceFile =
   return  ; This will exit in this case.

OutputDest = Destroyed Ships:
OutputJump = Jumped Ships:
Loop, read, %SourceFile%
{
    Loop, parse, A_LoopReadLine, `n,`r
    {
      RegExMatch(A_LoopField,"i)LOST CONTACT with (.*) at.*DESTROYED.*",DestPat)
      RegExMatch(A_LoopField,"i)(.*) destroyed",Dest2Pat)
      RegExMatch(A_LoopField,"i)LOST CONTACT with (.*) at.*JUMPED.*",JumpPat)
      
      if DestPat1
         OutputDest = %OutputDest%`n%DestPat1%
      if Dest2Pat1
      {
         IfInString,Dest2Pat1,Onboard System(s)
            break
         else
            OutputDest = %OutputDest%`n%Dest2Pat1% (own)
      }
      if JumpPat
         OutputJump = %OutputJump%`n%JumpPat1%
      
    }
}
MsgBox,%OutputDest%`n`n%OutputJump%
Clipboard = %OutputDest%`n`n%OutputJump%


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 Post subject: Re: OFFICIAL: Combat Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 4:38 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2004 12:00 am
Posts: 26
Location: Australia
u know just for the hell of it i think Mark should send a SSD right into the middle of the combat zone and see how long it takes us to kill it oh and give us an extra 200k points to spend as well :P


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 Post subject: Re: OFFICIAL: Combat Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 4:39 pm 
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<!-- Cadet //-->

Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 8:04 am
Posts: 0
You could also make it so PT's hit shields. But yeah I don't see a massive amount wrong with what just happened. Without gravewell generators it'll always be possible to get 100 things with PT's together and jump in right next to an enemy cap-ship. I think the trick is to balance it so that, if you start form 10km away or something, and you have even points and a CAP your capital ships stand a chance. The main thing you've got to be carefull of is not making it so that fighters/bombers are more effective in some combination than their cost in capital ships.

To be honest, what I'd do in the main game is make it so that fighters and bombers are less cost effective, but much easier/take less time to build and keep supplied.


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 Post subject: Re: OFFICIAL: Combat Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 4:46 pm 
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<!-- Cadet //-->

Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 8:04 am
Posts: 0
The best way of testing things would be to take two fleets of 5 NFRG's and see what combination of figter/bomber loadout is optimal. Trouble is that's a bit difficult the way the games currently set up.


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 Post subject: Re: OFFICIAL: Combat Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 4:51 pm 
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<!-- Cadet //-->

Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 6:42 am
Posts: 0
markb50k wrote:
what does everyone think about a better range for the PT.  I agree that with the current engine and immediate hits, 10km is a big advantage over interceptors.


Well, in theory the 'weakness' of PTs is that they can be shot down (the longer range the delivery, the higher the chance). I can imagine implementing this would require some non-trivial re-coding...

You could give them a relatively high miss rate, even against capital ships - at least as long as they are moving. And a very very narrow arc.


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 Post subject: Re: OFFICIAL: Combat Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 4:58 pm 
Offline
<!-- Cadet //-->

Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 7:28 am
Posts: 7
Location: Versailles, France
I wouldn't make the PTs have a lower chance to hit. Just restrict them to the bombers that can carry it. The bombers themselves are quite fragile or really expensive, and in all cases they are pretty easy targets for fighters to intercept.

But I reckon that it's an acceptable tactic which I used - in normal fights, bombers will need to have cover to get through. In this case, I could jump on top of the EIDLN and LIBRTR and had the benefit of them not having any fighters on patrol near them other than some KWINGs.


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 Post subject: Re: OFFICIAL: Combat Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:03 pm 
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<!-- Cadet //-->

Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 2:05 am
Posts: 4
Actually, a 'flak factor' for ships based on the types and numbers of weapons on it has been an idea of mine for a while, and it might be implementable pretty quickly (after i figure out this fleet stuff).

In the meantime, I was thinking of bringing the range of PT down to say 7000 or something like that.


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 Post subject: Re: OFFICIAL: Combat Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:18 pm 
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<!-- Cadet //-->

Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 8:04 am
Posts: 0
To be honest, a quite short range like 3.5km would simulate a flack barrage quite well.


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 Post subject: Re: OFFICIAL: Combat Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:31 pm 
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<!-- Cadet //-->

Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 7:28 am
Posts: 7
Location: Versailles, France
7000m wouldn't be too bad (its 10km now?) - but don't make it too weak as i said. I would definately recommend removing the ability to allow all fighters with CMs to switch to PTs.


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 Post subject: Re: OFFICIAL: Combat Discussion
PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 7:01 am 
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<!-- Cadet //-->

Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 7:28 am
Posts: 7
Location: Versailles, France
A bunch of AWINGs destroyed my TBs utterly there. It saved KySoto's ESC from destruction. (and grr, another EIDLN? :P )

Code:
Destroyed Ships:
VULTRE Gamma 3
VULTRE Gamma 13
VULTRE Gamma 15
VULTRE Gamma 1
VULTRE Gamma 18
VULTRE Gamma 5
VULTRE Gamma 2
VULTRE Gamma 14
VULTRE Gamma 10
VULTRE Gamma 9
VULTRE Gamma 11
VULTRE Gamma 7
KWING Gamma 15
VULTRE Gamma 6
VULTRE Gamma 17
VULTRE Gamma 8
TUFTR Alpha 28
TUFTR Alpha 2
TUFTR Alpha 5
VULTRE Gamma 4
TUFTR Alpha 23
VULTRE Gamma 16
VULTRE Gamma 12
TUFTR Alpha 9
TUFTR Alpha 30
TUFTR Alpha 20
TUFTR Alpha 22
TUFTR Alpha 24
TUFTR Alpha 17
TUFTR Alpha 13
NFRG Putrid (own)
TB Sigma 27 (own)
TB Kappa 4 (own)
NFRG Twisted (own)
TB Kappa 21 (own)
TB Rho 18 (own)
TB Rho 5 (own)
TB Epsilon 33 (own)
TB Rho 10 (own)
TB Sigma 1 (own)
TB Rho 17 (own)
TB Kappa 34 (own)
TB Epsilon 34 (own)
TB Sigma 20 (own)
TB Epsilon 28 (own)
TB Kappa 15 (own)
TB Rho 11 (own)
TB Kappa 11 (own)
TB Sigma 32 (own)
TB Sigma 8 (own)
TB Epsilon 6 (own)
TB Kappa 35 (own)
TB Sigma 14 (own)
TB Sigma 7 (own)
TB Sigma 34 (own)
TB Kappa 7 (own)
TB Kappa 29 (own)
TB Rho 8 (own)
TB Kappa 10 (own)
TB Sigma 11 (own)
TB Epsilon 9 (own)
TB Rho 30 (own)
TB Rho 9 (own)
TUFTR Alpha 15
TB Rho 13 (own)
TB Rho 21 (own)
TB Rho 22 (own)
TB Epsilon 27 (own)
TB Kappa 17 (own)
TB Kappa 23 (own)
TB Sigma 5 (own)
TB Epsilon 14 (own)
TB Rho 34 (own)
TB Rho 1 (own)
TB Rho 23 (own)
TB Kappa 9 (own)
TB Kappa 31 (own)
TB Epsilon 1 (own)
TB Sigma 15 (own)
TB Sigma 26 (own)
TB Epsilon 16 (own)
TB Kappa 25 (own)
TB Kappa 18 (own)
TB Kappa 33 (own)
TB Rho 12 (own)
TB Epsilon 3 (own)
TB Sigma 35 (own)
TB Kappa 1 (own)
TB Sigma 17 (own)
TB Kappa 26 (own)
TB Sigma 9 (own)
TB Kappa 27 (own)
TB Epsilon 31 (own)
TB Kappa 8 (own)
TB Sigma 10 (own)
TB Epsilon 17 (own)
TB Rho 3 (own)
TB Epsilon 5 (own)
TB Sigma 23 (own)
TB Epsilon 24 (own)
TB Epsilon 35 (own)
TB Rho 35 (own)
TB Kappa 14 (own)
TB Kappa 2 (own)
TB Epsilon 26 (own)
TB Sigma 36 (own)
TB Epsilon 7 (own)
TB Sigma 19 (own)
TB Sigma 4 (own)
TB Epsilon 8 (own)
TB Kappa 13 (own)
TB Rho 28 (own)
TB Kappa 24 (own)
TB Sigma 22 (own)
TB Kappa 30 (own)
TB Epsilon 32 (own)
TB Kappa 32 (own)
TB Epsilon 25 (own)
TB Kappa 22 (own)
TB Epsilon 30 (own)
TB Epsilon 13 (own)
TB Kappa 12 (own)
TB Kappa 20 (own)
TB Kappa 5 (own)
TB Epsilon 10 (own)
TB Sigma 31 (own)
TB Sigma 25 (own)
TB Epsilon 4 (own)
TB Epsilon 22 (own)
TB Rho 14 (own)
TB Epsilon 19 (own)
TB Epsilon 2 (own)
TB Kappa 36 (own)
TB Sigma 28 (own)
TB Sigma 13 (own)
TB Rho 16 (own)
TB Rho 33 (own)
TB Epsilon 21 (own)
TB Rho 6 (own)
TB Rho 24 (own)
TB Epsilon 20 (own)
TB Epsilon 11 (own)
TB Kappa 3 (own)
TB Sigma 21 (own)
TB Kappa 16 (own)
TB Kappa 19 (own)
TB Epsilon 12 (own)
MNFRG Tom Fool
TUFTR Alpha 4
TUFTR Alpha 3
TUFTR Alpha 14
TUFTR Alpha 18
AWING New AWING
NFRG Cursed (own)
AWING New AWING
AWING New AWING
AWING New AWING
AWING New AWING
AWING New AWING
AWING New AWING
AWING New AWING
AWING New AWING
AWING New AWING
AWING New AWING
AWING New AWING
AWING New AWING
AWING New AWING
AWING New AWING
AWING New AWING
AWING New AWING
AWING New AWING
AWING New AWING
AWING New AWING
AWING New AWING
NFRG Warped (own)

Jumped Ships:


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 Post subject: Re: OFFICIAL: Combat Discussion
PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 7:37 am 
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<!-- Cadet //-->

Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 2:05 am
Posts: 4
I could prevent ships from exchanging UPWARD in missile potency, meaning CM couldnt go to PT

OR

I could make switching to PT reduce the magazine capacity to half or something

thoughts?


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 Post subject: Re: OFFICIAL: Combat Discussion
PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 7:49 am 
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<!-- Cadet //-->

Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 2:05 am
Posts: 4
I also am concerned that I dont understand the 'tedious' nature of the fuel limits.

if you can upon creation, simply add a set of orders to your fighters that you never have to edit, that puts them on constant sortie, harsh fuel limits or not, its no-maintenance on your part, isnt it?

i can lower fuel usage for full engage status from 0.5 to 0.4 i guess, that would give you 20% more mission time before it needs to refuel.

also with the fleet thing it will go a little easier to with mission management i think


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 Post subject: Re: OFFICIAL: Combat Discussion
PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 8:01 am 
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<!-- Cadet //-->

Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 6:42 am
Posts: 0
One of the main problems is that, to change the orders of a group of fighters, and make sure they're not each doing their own thing, it's often necessary to Clear All Orders. It's a pain to have to re-enter the whole break/refuel thing every time this happens.

Anyway, if all fighters should receive these orders at creation, and they should never need to be edited... why can't they be built in? All the user would need to see is the BREAK% setting - all else would be transparent. Of course, the fighter would also need to be assigned to a home ship, or at least be able to navigate to the nearest one. But like DW and I said, that should probably be enforced anyway (which would also avoid things such as TD swarms).

About warheads, downgrade-only would be the better option I think.


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 Post subject: Re: OFFICIAL: Combat Discussion
PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 8:03 am 
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<!-- Cadet //-->

Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 7:28 am
Posts: 7
Location: Versailles, France
Keep the magazines intact, just don't allow CM tubes to have PTs (but PT tubes can have CMs) - that would work.


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